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Post by Testset on May 16, 2014 15:55:07 GMT
Why do so many players get agitated by being milled?
Realistically, unless you get milled out, there's no actual harm. If anything, you have considerably more access to your cards in the graveyard than in your deck. You can also predict what's coming up a lot easier when everything else is already revealed.
Odds are, you know your own deck better than your opponent, so the information should benefit you more than them.
If you have tutors, I can understand the concern, but let's keep in mind that the shuffle and draw system makes it random for both drawing and milling. You could just as easily be digging straight toward your bomb as you could be losing it.
Is it simply irrational?
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Post by anoobass on May 17, 2014 4:15:10 GMT
I personally made a mill deck because no one in my play group actually made a deck "built around" getting someone to 0 library. But it kind of depends on the rage level of the opponent. If he's getting mana screwed and you mill 2 cards, both mana I can understand, and same for creatures. But as for just raging about losing 2 cards that you could of had I think it's just about I'd rather have those in my hand than never even get a chance at them. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by abstractapathist on May 17, 2014 4:19:14 GMT
I agree that it is an irrational agitation, but it probably stems from the same thing that hate of combo come from. Many people feel like any wincon that isn't beating an opponent down with creatures is 'cheap' and annoying. That said, the best mill spell, {Glimpse the Unthinkable}, only does 10/50 • 20 = the equivalent of 4 damage, or a {Boros Charm}, so it isn't actually overpowered by any means.
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Post by anoobass on May 17, 2014 4:35:53 GMT
Yea it only does 4 damage equivalent, but say that u, t1 tome scour, t2 glimpse, if you go first their deck has 37 cards left. You say that it's only 4 damage equivalent but they also start with a handicap of 7 and end up hurting themselves every turn. And to have only 1 land down and maybe a creature and be 23/60 dead, it's actually a pretty hard hit.
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Post by abstractapathist on May 17, 2014 14:55:08 GMT
Well i think it's best to count it really out of 50 rather than 60 since turn 4-6 is around the fastest a mill deck will kill someone. It seems like a hard hit to take 15/50 • 20 = 6 damage in the first 2 turns, but 3 {Lightning Bolt}s does 50% more damage.
Also, {Lightning Bolt}, {Rift Bolt}, etc. are more powerful since they can hit creatures too, while mill needs other cards if it wants removal.
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Post by anoobass on May 17, 2014 18:52:15 GMT
I would like extensive testing to see who would win most often, my mill deck, or your burn deck, I believe mine is modern legal but could post a list to make sure.
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Post by adestructiveforce on May 18, 2014 0:18:06 GMT
To answer the original question, my thought is more psychological, I don't think people like seeing their cards, especially ones they have some kind of emotional attachment to, put into a graveyard from anywhere.
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Post by Testset on May 18, 2014 0:32:31 GMT
I concur with this last point:
I've had people gripe about my deck making them draw too many cards, because then they have to toss some. It's like: dude, you're keeping the best 7 you have. What is there to complain about?
It must be the sight of cards reaching the "dead" pile...
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Post by Gorzo on May 18, 2014 9:47:19 GMT
I'm sure it depends a lot on the player and their personal reasons for playing, as well.
A Johnny like myself would likely smile being killed losing to mill. A player that fits into the "Johnny" spectrum tends to appreciate roundabout ways of winning, even if the one doing it isn't them. Of course, if a Johnny is oh so close to getting that prized combo they love, and you mill his last combo piece, he's gonna be sad.
A Spike is probably more likely to get agitated. Mill is seen as a less competitive strategy, and some "more intense" spikes will even go so far as to just say it's stupid or bad. And losing is frustrating enough for Spike. Losing to a "bad" opponent or non-viable strat? It could make the spike player upset, at the other player or at himself. Or just at the game, or at luck (especially if the milling was really lucky and screwed up his draws just the wrong way).
I can see Timmy going either way on it. A Timmy kind of player might appreciate the fun and all of what you did. On the other hand, mill has a kind of denial aspect to it that might annoy a Timmy because you're putting the cards he wanted to have fun with into the grave without him getting the chance to play them. Nothing makes Timmy more sad than denial, and mill has a kind of mental impact of denial to it, even if it isn't actually stopping you from doing anything directly.
My thoughts, anyway.
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Post by abstractapathist on May 18, 2014 14:05:33 GMT
I would like extensive testing to see who would win most often, my mill deck, or your burn deck, I believe mine is modern legal but could post a list to make sure. Sure, I'd be down for some wall games! And Gorzo, that sounds about right. I feel like more Timmy players will get annoyed by mill than not, but your analysis is pretty sound. |
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Post by Testset on May 18, 2014 16:55:10 GMT
I'd be happy to do some more wall games, as well. Though mine is so control-based, it might not be the best one for testing. And you usually don't want to mill a player with Snapcasters...
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Post by ekann1 on May 20, 2014 1:26:22 GMT
Just mill the snapcasters!  |
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Post by anoobass on May 20, 2014 6:25:30 GMT
Just mill the snapcasters! That would be the plan lol |
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