luckylily
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Original Member
Posts: 54
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Post by luckylily on Mar 4, 2014 19:05:23 GMT
The Commander Ban List is a Joke
"The Commander ban list is a joke. Everyone knows this. The people playing the format know it, and the people not playing the format definitely know it. The ban list is a joke, and its absurdity is made only more apparent and egregious with the latest ban of Sylvan Primordial. But it’s a joke for a different reason than you might think. In regular constructed formats, ban lists are required to regulate the balance of power and encourage diversity. In Commander, the ban list is meant to be a universal guideline to strengthen and convey the social contract of the format: that every game should be fun for all players. The social nature underlying the Commander ban list correlates to the social nature of Commander as a multiplayer format. While many players have their own tight-knit playgroups where house rules can be readily agreed upon, Commander has grown so much as a casual format that pickup games are likely more commonplace. For a multiplayer format with so many participants, a universal guideline such as the official ban list is necessary to keep games among random players from devolving into a filthy, hot, arguing mess about whether or not someone should be playing Sundering Titan or Painter’s Servant. Despite its noble intentions, however, the official ban list is a joke because its porous, inconsistent nature hinders it from carrying out its purpose to any relevant extent. Yes, cards like Worldfire, Biorhythm, and Limited Resources are obviously format-breaking and should be unquestionably banned. Emrakul and Griselbrand are examples of creatures that warp a game merely by being played, and in my eyes were ban-worthy. The line begins to blur, however, when cards like Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial are banned. Yes, Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial are game-breaking if recurred. The problem is that, in Commander, a LOT of cards become game-breaking when they’re recurred. Primeval and Sylvan can be game-breaking when they are ramped out. A LOT of cards break games when ramped out. If cards like these-abusive if copied, recurred or ramped-are bannable, why not ban Tooth and Nail? Consecrated Sphinx? Bribery? All of these cards can be played “fairly,” but most of the time they aren’t, yet they still exist in the format. A ban list should not revoke some cards while letting cards of similar power levels remain. To take things one step further, why not increase interaction in the format by banning the enabler cards that make the above cards so abusable? Deadeye Navigator, Survival of the Fittest, and Mind Over Matter are Commander cards that are never played with fair intentions and generally act as centerpieces for game-winning combos. Given a scenario where you choose between two cards, one a potentially abusable but sometimes reasonable card, and the other an unquestionably powerful card that often functions as a combo enabler, which one would you ban? To use Legacy as an example, would you ban the Survival or the Vengevine? I know my answer. Nothing meaningful is accomplished by banning cards piecemeal. The player who runs Deadeye Navigator will continue to use Deadeye Navigator. The player who runs Tooth and Nail will still run Tooth and Nail. Unless a stance is taken to entirely remove these strategies from the format, people will continue to wonder why Primeval Titan is on the same ban list as Channel and Painter’s Servant, while Iona and Survival are still fair game. This inconsistency is confusing to both new and experienced players, as well as to those outside the format. And for good reason-it expresses a lack of conviction. As in all other formats, a ban list should go all-out or not at all. The Commander ban list should be no different. As I mentioned earlier, individual playgroups have the decadent luxury of being able to modify, ignore or recreate altogether their own errata and ban lists for their own games, and I feel this is an approach that has been sorely neglected. If you are lucky enough to play with a tight-knit group of players, discussing and arriving at a consensus for individual cards is the ideal solution for ensuring a fun experience for all players. Many players already know this, but I want to stress: Don’t follow the ban list if you don’t want to. As long as your fellow players agree to it, play Commander the way you want to. The blessing and curse of this format is that you can do whatever you want. And until the official ban list conveys some semblance of consistency, you should always keep an ear open to new possibilities in how you regulate and play your games. I don’t envy the Rules Committee. Attempting to regulate a casual format is almost an exercise in futility, and the social-gameplay dichotomy behind the ban list only serves as a microcosm for the global tension between “strong” and “fun” that exists in the format. But as Commander becomes even more mainstream and legitimized thanks to Wizards’ support, its ban list should make sense. For a proper format, casual or no, that in itself just makes sense." - David Lee I agree 100% and thought this might be thought and conversation provoking for the forum.
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Post by Testset on Mar 4, 2014 19:41:25 GMT
I always thought cards like Serra Ascendant and Felidar Sovereign were absolutely broken in that format. Yet they will deny my Coalition Victory.
Sure the Victory is dumb, but it's also whimsical and silly, much like the format. It's a 100 card singleton. There's not THAT much strategy toward deckbuilding, because luck takes a much larger role in Commander.
Meanwhile, the Ascendant and the Sovereign simply abuse a technicality, with no effort and no drawbacks whatsoever. They were designed based on a starting total of 20 life. I suggest that THOSE should be banned far sooner than cards which are simply "good."
It's not like Commander is the only multiplayer format. Why not be consistent and ban the Primordial from any games with 4 or more players?
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 4, 2014 20:01:07 GMT
Honestly, I think the single thing to make the decks more fair is to ban any and all tutors (except tutoring for basic lands). I'm not as worried about your Eldrazi if you have an honest 1/100 chance of getting him.
I think the ban list should start with any card based off you having a high life total, then every tutor, and go from there (there are more that must be banned, but with those two categories banned, other cards become harder to abuse). It would make red better since it'snot the tutor color, and is usually the weakest color in EDH.
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Post by Testset on Mar 4, 2014 20:07:02 GMT
On the one hand, that'd hose my Zur deck. On the flip side, I can't argue that tutors go against the whole idea of EDH. If I get one attack with Zur the Enchanter, he's getting Diplomatic Immunity. Every time. After that, there is no random factor. Just a 50+ card arsenal. Kinda defeats the whole singleton thing...
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 4, 2014 20:10:52 GMT
yeah. It would hose my {nemata, grove guardian} deck, which digs as hard as it can to find {gaea's cradle}. But that one rule is easy to remember, still allows (at least until one of them is a problem) some digging, like {mulch} or {ponder}, but I think that is ok. And admit it. Zur should be banned as a comander.
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Post by Muggy on Mar 4, 2014 20:26:42 GMT
Sylvan primordial needed to be banned.
I've had a six player game where he comes out T5... It's unfair straight up.
Same with primeval Titan, fetched any land. Only cost 6.
Channel : fire ball off the bat anyone?
Now I agree on maybe banning more utility creatures like deadeye navigator, he is a huge piece of a lot of abuse.
Conjurers closest, venser both bounce once per turn, that's ok, but when you bounce palinchron and put unlimited counters on jenara and its not even turn 10 yet...well that's abuse of the fun of the system and play format
Usually those people end up getting ganged up on by default. Which kind of really screws up the fun of FFA, as it turns into : kill that guy and then we can play.
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Post by Testset on Mar 4, 2014 20:39:56 GMT
See, that's the hazard of being the obvious threat (look what happened to Germany). You wind up fighting a war on multiple fronts.
I learned long ago: subtlety and charisma is a key part of winning multiplayer. Trying to win big gets you killed fast.
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 4, 2014 20:43:59 GMT
Sylvan primordial needed to be banned. I've had a six player game where he comes out T5... It's unfair straight up. Same with primeval Titan, fetched any land. Only cost 6. Channel : fire ball off the bat anyone? Now I agree on maybe banning more utility creatures like deadeye navigator, he is a huge piece of a lot of abuse. Conjurers closest, venser both bounce once per turn, that's ok, but when you bounce palinchron and put unlimited counters on jenara and its not even turn 10 yet...well that's abuse of the fun of the system and play format Usually those people end up getting ganged up on by default. Which kind of really screws up the fun of FFA, as it turns into : kill that guy and then we can play. How often did they just draw into the primordial, not fetch him to hand or graveyard? If its just fair draw, he should show up less than half of the games you play, and he is less absurb if you can't fetch your clones to copy him.
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Post by Muggy on Mar 4, 2014 21:02:06 GMT
Well actually most people tutor him.
Usually t1 sol ring is the most common move of my environment.
And if someone just bounces, destroys most land/artifacts/enchantments and gets 4-5 land drops in addition to nerfin the competition within the first 7 turns. It just makes EDH not fun.
Already gotta deal with the spike proxy decks, so having to deal with cards that no one owns AND sylvan popping all my land/utilities makes the format boring and unsavory. Ends up making people leave the playgroup if all they do is show up, unable to play deck due to someone jacking off themselves with broken combos.
Once the league starts up at my LGS they will give neg points for infinite combos (limit x per turn or something) & proxies are banned completely.
EDH is a fun format, you wanna ruin it with your spike builds? Don't play with me or ill just bring out winter orb merike and be a prick. Then we play lockdown. 4 hour game of nothing.
Yeah no thanks
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 4, 2014 21:06:05 GMT
I think "competitive EDH" is fine if everyone wants it, but it only really works in 1v1.
I have a confession to make. I run {winter orb} and {static orb} in the same mono-green deck. My friend convinced me that that was evil, and I can run one, but not both.
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 4, 2014 21:08:30 GMT
Well actually most people tutor him. Usually t1 sol ring is the most common move of my environment. And if someone just bounces, destroys most land/artifacts/enchantments and gets 4-5 land drops in addition to nerfin the competition within the first 7 turns. It just makes EDH not fun. Already gotta deal with the spike proxy decks, so having to deal with cards that no one owns AND sylvan popping all my land/utilities makes the format boring and unsavory. Ends up making people leave the playgroup if all they do is show up, unable to play deck due to someone jacking off themselves with broken combos. Once the league starts up at my LGS they will give neg points for infinite combos (limit x per turn or something) & proxies are banned completely. EDH is a fun format, you wanna ruin it with your spike builds? Don't play with me or ill just bring out winter orb merike and be a prick. Then we play lockdown. 4 hour game of nothing. Yeah no thanks But see, its really the search cards that make Sylvan go from "very strong" to "format breaking" Its like how affinity was broken in Mirroden, but it was actually just the artifact lands that made it broken. without them, it's not exactly dominating modern (the most popular lists have one affinity creature, tops)
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Post by nightwolf on Mar 4, 2014 22:05:10 GMT
This is where your play group should decide. I play in a very competitive environment. A t5 sylvan is slow. If you play somewhere thats less competitive ban whatever you like. Its casual. Myself and my play group enjoy the way we play. I mean dropping iona naming blue when I'm the only non blue player is fair right?
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 4, 2014 22:31:27 GMT
This is where your play group should decide. I play in a very competitive environment. A t5 sylvan is slow. If you play somewhere thats less competitive ban whatever you like. Its casual. Myself and my play group enjoy the way we play. I mean dropping iona naming blue when I'm the only non blue player is fair right? True, but in that vein, why not unban moxen in your play group? local groups can un-ban cards easier than we ban cards. A good "ban" list is oemthing that can be a baseline, so that if I'm at PAX and bring out my black lotuses (I don't have any) i won't be surprised if the locals don't allow that, or I show up with a mercadian masques only EDH deck and act surprised at turn <5 primordial.
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Post by moneekahh on Mar 5, 2014 2:09:06 GMT
I completely agree that if anything ruins the flavor of the format, it's tutors. Goes against the entire concept of randomized singletons.
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luckylily
Junior Member
Original Member
Posts: 54
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Post by luckylily on Mar 5, 2014 3:00:59 GMT
The banlist of "French" 1v1 is much more reasonable, allowing even "broken" things but stopping the obvious ACTUAL problem such as super fast mana (sol ring, mana crypt...etc) and even most of the super broken tutors.
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 5, 2014 14:21:24 GMT
The banlist of "French" 1v1 is much more reasonable, allowing even "broken" things but stopping the obvious ACTUAL problem such as super fast mana (sol ring, mana crypt...etc) and even most of the super broken tutors. I've never seen a different ban list for French. I'm sure its everywhere and I just missed it. Can you link it here?
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luckylily
Junior Member
Original Member
Posts: 54
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Post by luckylily on Mar 5, 2014 15:14:40 GMT
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