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Post by johng4490 on Mar 2, 2014 16:46:28 GMT
I was at game day yesterday. My opponent played elspeth and had her at 7 loyalty. I had been holding onto a hero's downfall, waiting till the best time to kill her (I could handle her tokens). He went to ultimate, and I respond with the downfall, which I was then told wouldn't work. I thought this was the point of instant speed removal? What is the difference between responding to +1 On his jace and -7 on his elspeth? Does it have to do with the -7 killing her already?
Thanks for the help, timing and priority still confuse me sometimes.
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Post by agruskosenforceroftr on Mar 2, 2014 17:00:19 GMT
Here is what happened: Your opponent, the active player, used Elspeth's activated ability and you responded with Hero's Downfall. Elspeth's negative 7 ability removes counters from her, putting her to zero, putting her ability on the stack and Elspeth, Sun's Champion actually dies as a state based action the next time that player receives priority (just after he uses the ability and before he passes priority). So in order here is what happens: He uses Elspeth, Elspeth dies, you cast Hero's Downfall (which you technically can't because it doesn't have a target). Now the stack starts resolving: your Hero's Downfall has no target and does nothing and then Elspeth's ability resolves, because it is not contingent on having her in play. In short: your opponent was right because it doesn't matter if Elspeth is on the field when her ability resolves. Hope this helps and you need any of it explained, just ask  |
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Post by johng4490 on Mar 2, 2014 22:41:57 GMT
Thank you, that was good. I was thinking that before the ability took effect, the instant would "interrupt".
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Post by Testset on Mar 3, 2014 2:18:15 GMT
Unless I'm missing something here, that's not quite correct.
If any ability is activated, the cost is paid (in this case, removing counters) and the ability is put onto the stack.
The Active Player receives priority again, and a check is done, which sees that Elsbeth has no loyalty counters and she is put into the graveyard as a state-based action.
Now the Active Player may pass priority to their opponent. Elspeth is no longer on the battlefield, so Hero's Downfall cannot be cast on her, as she is no longer a legal target.
If she still had loyalty counters, and so wouldn't have been put into the graveyard, destroying her with Hero's downfall after receiving priority will not stop her ability from resolving. Abilities exist independently of their source.
Remember the analogy: shooting an archer with a gun after he has fired his arrow will not stop the arrow, even though the bullet hit him before the arrow reached its target.
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Post by agruskosenforceroftr on Mar 3, 2014 2:29:57 GMT
I said, "you cast Hero's Downfall (which you technically can't because it doesn't have a target)."
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Post by Testset on Mar 3, 2014 14:39:48 GMT
I gotcha man, I was concerned that it should be clarified, especially since you mentioned it again at resolution of the stack.
It was never cast, and thus never on the stack. It wouldn't "do nothing" (as that suggests it was countered due to lack of target); it was never on the stack to begin with.
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Post by DrEggman on Mar 3, 2014 14:54:08 GMT
Why does the same not apply to abilities of creatures?
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Post by Testset on Mar 3, 2014 14:56:30 GMT
How do you mean?
Abilities of creatures are not countered by destroying the source, either.
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Post by ieatfood7 on Mar 10, 2014 5:25:07 GMT
Why does the same not apply to abilities of creatures? I think I understand the question. For a spell or ability with a target to successfully resolve, it's target must exist and be a legal target at the time the spell or ability is cast/activated and also at the time it resolves. The SOURCE of such an ability (such as {prodigal sorcerer}) must exist at the time the ability spell is cast/activated, but does not need to exist at resolution. Think of it like shooting an arrow. You need to have a thing to aim at when shooting, and they need to be there to get hit when the arrow arrives, but once you lose the arrow, you can leave without stopping the arrow's flight. |
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Post by Muggy on Mar 13, 2014 18:04:29 GMT
Since you can use instants in upkeep: pop elspeth then
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